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9:44 am February 10, 2011
| kidandresu
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| Member | posts 9 |
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Post edited 10:45 am – February 10, 2011 by kidandresu
Hi guys
I think most of us who have played through the game and kill satan several times with all characters will all agree that the little fairy emo wizard is clearly the most easy and powerfull character, and also possibly the most versatile (well, at least it is for me).
I always tend to go for mele wizard, with the so effective telestab and the devastating magic crystals, it´s fairly easy to go through all levels. but recently i have discovered the ultimate strategy to follow with her… it happened by chance, once i got a slowing wand, I found it to be extreemly powerful and i decided to stick with it, this wand slows targeted enemies down a 33% of their speed (one stopped turn for every two moved)… so, as you know, the higher the energy, the more damage the wizard deals, then i decided to farm a bit in the genius for blue potions which i drunk em all at full energy , plus a couple of increase energy scrolls, plus the 5 increase skill, i ended up with an unstoppable wizard cannon, it's amazing how powerfull she can get like this.
so last game i decided to go for this build again, but this time i managed to keep in locker 14 blue potions, plus a couple of spellbooks, and this time with the regular wand u start with… the results were astonishing. she was just a slayer, no enemy, even in hell 3, could even get close enough…
[Image Removed by User]
 
As you can see in the image, i got to satan´s with 105 points of max energy, and only with teleport skill, i was so freaking powerfull i didn´t even need any other skill, my +0 normal wand dealt 45 to 50 damage per attack, 90 to 100 in critics, well, with such little beast satan was just piece of cake,
of course this build has this prequisite, it depends in the farming of blue bottles, which make it not very fan to play… also it is not challenging… but it worths a try, at least just once, just to feel the power for a littl while….
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4:20 am February 14, 2011
| Josh
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Post edited 4:21 am – February 14, 2011 by Josh
I found this interesting, so I tried it, and I can confirm that it works. I currently have a wizard on Hell 3, pretty much immune to everything, with Magic Crystals to kill tougher enemies quickly and the wand for everything else. Level 3 purify heals fast enough to make me immune to hunger. The only real risk: getting sloppy and occasionally letting through a hit that reduces max HP by one. So far I've lost 2 max HP to that, but gained 4 max HP by leveling.
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3:24 pm February 14, 2011
| Keith Burgun
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She did just get a nerf to Magic Crystals. We're also shortening her teleport range for the next patch.
Also, all of you seasoned Satan-killers should only be playing ROGUE MODE (the new hard difficulty setting) from now on.
All said, I think you'll be pleased with the upcoming patch.
As for farming, do you guys have a suggestion as to what would make it impossible for you to farm? My gut feeling is that food is too common if you're able to do that, but it's a very difficult balance to strike, the food thing.
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3:44 pm February 14, 2011
| Josh
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| Member | posts 35 |
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Keith Burgun said:
She did just get a nerf to Magic Crystals.
The 3x3 -> plus-shape nerf? Probably won't make a lot of difference except against bosses. Though I do like the new configuration in any case.
We're also shortening her teleport range for the next patch.
Ouch, please don't do *that*. It won't make telestab any less powerful, but it does make escaping more of a pain.
Also, if you want to nerf this particular exploit more effectively, just reduce or eliminate the effect of an energy potion with full energy. Perhaps add a level-based cap on max energy, or perhaps add a cap on how much energy can boost the wand's damage (factor of N at most, for some sensible N, though don't forget to take level into account).
Also, all of you seasoned Satan-killers should only be playing ROGUE MODE (the new hard difficulty setting) from now on.
Awesome, I look forward to trying that. At this point the majority of games end in a win. Any hints about what you changed in Rogue mode? You mentioned before that easy mode makes the levels larger to spread things out.
All said, I think you'll be pleased with the upcoming patch.
As for farming, do you guys have a suggestion as to what would make it impossible for you to farm? My gut feeling is that food is too common if you're able to do that, but it's a very difficult balance to strike, the food thing.
You can ignore food completely if you have sufficiently good healing. The wizard I have on Hell 3 right now hasn't eaten for the last two experience levels.
Do you want to end farming completely or just make it more difficult?
If you want to end it completely, any one of the following would work, though all of them would represent fairly significant gameplay changes:
- Remove the slow-death effect of hunger, add several messages at 0 belly saying "You're starving to death!", and then just instakill the player after a certain number of turns without any chance to heal. Most roguelikes do this.
- Ramp up the slow-death effect: 1 damage per turn for N turns, 2 damage per turn for N turns, and so on. Reset when you stop starving.
- Slow down energy regeneration when starving.
Alternatively, if you just want to make farming more difficult and risky:
- When starving, add a chance to pass out from hunger for several rounds (same effect as stunning). That would make it a *lot* more risky to farm. You could also do this in combination with any of the suggestions to end farming completely, as an added bit of flavor; if made sufficiently dangerous, this will end farming completely.
- Ramp up the strength of enemies based on the time spent on a level, or the number of enemies killed on that level. Several roguelikes take this approach, making it dangerous to not keep moving.
One more note: you should eliminate the safe spot in the genie battle, making it at least marginally less reasonable to just sit and farm potions. Still possible to farm there, but less silly than staying completely out of reach.
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5:56 pm February 14, 2011
| kidandresu
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| Member | posts 9 |
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Post edited 6:56 pm – February 14, 2011 by kidandresu
Josh said:
I found this interesting, so I tried it, and I can confirm that it works. I currently have a wizard on Hell 3, pretty much immune to everything, with Magic Crystals to kill tougher enemies quickly and the wand for everything else. Level 3 purify heals fast enough to make me immune to hunger. The only real risk: getting sloppy and occasionally letting through a hit that reduces max HP by one. So far I've lost 2 max HP to that, but gained 4 max HP by leveling.
Hey, I'm glad that it worked for you…
Actually I have tried this build several times more… (getting addict to power maybe?) :P all of them identically successful. The thing is that this little slaughterer does not depend on loot to succed, unlike the crusader or the skellyman, with which i only could kill satan being really well equiped…, she only needs her wand and a nice boost of mana, and success is guaranteed.
I have refined this build a bit… now I spend my first point straight away in EP UP (a skill I didn´t hapen to give any value before), and drink blue bottle all of it in the first turn, this makes the wand to literally double the damage in the beginning, most monsters will die in a couple of shots…. the next skill will go of course for the greatest ability of teleport, yes, it is overpowered, but it is so great… I don't know if i care about it…
This way you can pass through the first three levels to the genius easily, once in the genius, try to get al least 8 or 10 blue bottles, (you shouldn't have problems with food), and drink em all (dont worry, you won´t need em in the future for traditionall uses, like molotov coktel or mana refillers, belive me). From this point, easy as pie, you don´t need to get 100+ max ep like i did on my first try, that was because i storaged 14 blue potions on the locker on a previous game, and that is too much power, actually getting to satan with 70 or 75 max ep and your three glass balls is more than enough.
Concerning to the wizard teleport castration, i am kind of sad about it, but agree that she is just too powerful compared to the other two guys, and that is not fairy fair, they would probably need a bit of balance. So I support it :)
And the farming issue, I find Josh suggestions in general pretty good, for the matter of the fairy, no safe threshold to keep her away from genie's fireballs sounds like a great solution.
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11:42 pm February 14, 2011
| rdermyer
| | Lawrence, KS | |
| Member | posts 80 |
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Really active thread today…
We're also shortening her teleport range for the next patch.
I at first had a problem with this, because it would make it impossible to jump hallways (since the minimum 2-wide hallways are just narrow enough as it is), but then I realized I only do that when I really try to minimize turncount. I think I agree with this statement:
It won't make telestab any less powerful, but it does make escaping more of a pain.
Also, if you want to nerf this particular exploit more effectively, just reduce or eliminate the effect of an energy potion with full energy. Perhaps add a level-based cap on max energy, or perhaps add a cap on how much energy can boost the wand's damage (factor of N at most, for some sensible N, though don't forget to take level into account).
I don't know how I feel about this, because then I wouldn't be able to buff up my Crusader's magic, but then I don't think that scumming the Genie's level is necessarily intended. Plus then I could feel okay about using mana potions to recover mana instead of replenish my max. Maybe reducing it would be good.
Also, all of you seasoned Satan-killers should only be playing ROGUE MODE (the new hard difficulty setting) from now on.
Excited about this.
I definitely like some of Josh's ideas about hunger. I've only personally done serious farming once; once the turncount-sorted board came out, that satisfied me.
The instakill after a while combined with the fainting from hunger method would be effective and is used in other roguelikes that I have played. I am always surprised by the lack of notification when I start to take hunger damage, considering I was notified at 25 and 10.
Ramp up the slow-death effect: 1 damage per turn for N turns, 2 damage per turn for N turns, and so on. Reset when you stop starving.
This is a very cool idea too, since it would let you game the system for a little while, but then once you were taking 10-20 damage per turn, you'd have to spend every turn healing and then you'd run out of mana and die.
One more note: you should eliminate the safe spot in the genie battle, making it at least marginally less reasonable to just sit and farm potions. Still possible to farm there, but less silly than staying completely out of reach.
Very reasonable suggestion.
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10:58 am February 20, 2011
| Boo
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| Member | posts 50 |
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rdermyer said:
The instakill after a while combined with the fainting from hunger method would be effective and is used in other roguelikes that I have played. I am always surprised by the lack of notification when I start to take hunger damage, considering I was notified at 25 and 10.
Spamming 'oh, i'm positively famished' messages and the like once you hit zero stomach could also passive-aggressively address hunger evasion … or just turn on iAds when people have gone too far when farming? teeheehee
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12:27 pm February 20, 2011
| WesPaugh
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I like the way you think, boo. XD
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8:32 am May 17, 2011
| Justine
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| Member | posts 28 |
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Tested on 100 Rogues v. 2.8 and still viable. Damage scaling from energy has apparently been scaled down quite a bit, but still the easiest way to defeat Satan. Starting with EP UP also still a good idea.
From there on, it's a personal choice between Purify and Crystal Ball, whichever suits your personal preference. I find myself using Purify, but Crystal Ball can wake wanding so much easier when herding monsters in corridors.
As this build requires absolutely no gear it's the perfect choice for stacking up a cabinet for another game. Just wand, teleport and purify if needed.
Just killed Satan on Rogue difficulty with this build in starting robes and +2 wand I had to enchant since I got two scrolls and no more cabinets were forthcoming. Didn't farm for potions.
One little thing though, so far every time I've killed Satan the game has crashed and recovering the saved game is impossible. Is this a known issue?
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